Sometimes you reach that not so magical spot in life, where you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. For more than a year now, as time has allowed amongst the many things I do related to B&C History, I have delved headlong into research and conducted a good # of interviews, aimed at trying to shed light on a cornerstone wonderment of this history-- was Bonnie Parker pregnant when killed with Clyde Barrow on old LA Highway 418, that unusually hot day in May 1934??Once I initiated this endeavor-- early on, some people within and around the families and friends of the families (both outlaw and lawman)-- made their feelings known to me. A few people made it a point to tell me I should lay off, and "drop" my investigation into attempting to learn the truth concerning a possible Bonnie pregnancy. Interestingly for the most part, these pleas didn't center so much around what one might expect-- concerning areas of emotional sensitivity and the like. But rather the most prevalent expression made to me in this regard, has been a simple 5 word question-- "what difference would it make??"
Somehow whenever that question's been asked, I've not only felt that knowing the truth "could" make a difference for this history-- but I've also felt through that question, there was an underlying protective web being spun for both outlaw and lawman advantage-- but with the edge perhaps going to those with an interest in protecting the lawman's point of view. One conversation went a bit like this-- I'm represented by the color blue. "But Winston, they had to be stopped"-- "Yes I know, and I don't disagree". "But you don't understand-- if they hadn't been stopped, more would have died"-- "I do understand, and that's likely true". "Then what difference would it make if Bonnie was pregnant"??-- "Ah, but that "is" the question isn't it"?? Of course disagreement will reign, concerning what difference this knowledge would make-- should some supportable conclusion become available. From a practical point of view, of course nothing would change. What's done is done, and long ago. Depending on circumstance-- I suppose any new battleground could be a moral one.
But as I often consider, what would those alive in 1934 have thought of a Bonnie pregnancy??-- and would they have viewed this debate as being important?? They certainly were digging to find out. My question is why?? Was it mainly a matter of tabloid fascination until Bonnie's death, when it didn't matter any more?? Or was it more, the deadly game of cat and mouse between the law and B&C taken to a new level-- which then leaked into the press?? Why did the law seem so intent, on focusing their efforts toward learning the truth-- regarding the pregnancy of Bonnie Parker?? Did the law feel it would be easier to catch B&C, with such a dual joy and burden to perhaps slow the duo down?? Or maybe this knowledge accelerated a perceived urgency to get 'em quick-- before Clyde & Bonnie might do the unthinkable, and leave their known stomping grounds for a prolonged period-- due to the reality of a baby??
I don't recall seeing news reports from olden days, expressing sympathy for Bonnie-- should the reality of a pregnancy have been proven. But apparently behind the scenes, contingency plans were being developed in Louisiana to care for a Bonnie Parker child. For this rumor to have been developed that far, and within the location where Bonnie was active and interacting with individuals who it's said were preparing to help her-- surely makes one wonder. Would B&C think kindly, concerning a rumor of this sort being spread about them?? And if the rumor was true, would they want their reality to be known?? My God, there are a lot of questions within this question!%@&!!
I believe it's now thought with a reasonable assurance, that Frank Hamer believed Bonnie to be pregnant ("in a delicate condition")-- prior to the ambush. He relayed this knowledge, reportedly known from an informant's family in Louisiana-- to Dallas Bureau of Investigation SAC Frank Blake on May 11th, 1934-- 12 days prior to the waylay. Within this hand written document, Hamer reminds Blake he had told him of this knowledge before. Based on Captain Hamer's revelation to SAC Blake, a fair question remains-- whether this insider's info (true or not)-- was told to the other posse members, in advance of 9:15 AM on May 23rd?? It seems both before & after the ambush and in a variety of locations-- rumors swirled that Bonnie was indeed pregnant.
As John Neal Phillips referenced in his book Running With Bonnie and Clyde, news reporters were sent from Dallas to Arcadia and allowed to view the undraped body of Bonnie Parker in death-- to see if they could discern any sign of Bonnie being a reported 2 1/2 months pregnant at the time. Also as now revealed through various accounts-- these rumors had multiple sources in multiple places, seemingly all unrelated and unknown to one another. You know the old adage-- where there's smoke there's fire. Thus in reviewing the evidence, which seems to emit plumes of smoke as if from smoldering leaf piles scattered across the B&C landscape-- I decided to take on what could be considered a daunting challenge.
The B&CHB receives numerous inquiries each week, asking the question "Was Bonnie Parker pregnant??" My feeling is next to the ambush itself, the question of a Bonnie Parker pregnancy-- is the greatest mystery of the Bonnie and Clyde saga. Now that I've kicked my investigation into high gear concerning Bonnie's maternal status??-- I've receiving a renewed crop of calls for me to "drop" my investigation. Somehow when I hear these calls for "containment"-- it makes me even more intent on redoubling my efforts to get at the truth. One famous B&C researcher asked me as we discussed this-- "why would anyone not want to know at this point??" That's a good question. Why indeed??
My feeling is, this emotionally charged mystery concerning a Bonnie Parker pregnancy??-- is not going away with or without my interest. The more I cull through evidence, some of which is new or very obscurely known-- the more I feel I couldn't be more right to pursue a possible solution to this mystery. I tread with respect for all, and with the realization that whether or not a definitive answer can be found to this 76 year old question-- remains unknown.
What do you think?? Should a Bonnie Parker pregnancy be explored?? I welcome your comments.
My thanks to Life Magazine, for publishing the perfect photo for this expression.
To ask or not to ask. You are very passionate in following this question of a Bonnie Parker pregnancy. If you do not follow it through, you will one day regret you didn't. Time is not on your side as people's memory fades and many people of the era will be gone. Follow your question to it's conclusion
ReplyDeleteI have a question or two for you- Could Hamer's comment about Bonnie's condition of being delicate have meant that she had limited mobility and was in pain after the Wellington affair and it could be seen as shooting someone who was not really wanted for any crime but also wounded. Therefore could not the statement mean two things
Delicate- in that she was not wanted but just the fact that she was with Clyde Barrow and knowing what was going to happen meant she would also be killed
and secondly possibly her physical condition?
Also would not the Parker family have raised an issue about the police shooting a pregnant woman to draw a negative light on the posse?
I wish you the best in trying to get the answer
joe from canada
I would like to see the possibility of a pregnancy explored. While many people may logically ask, "What difference could it make?" Well, it won't make any difference one way or another, but discovering the truth would add at least one more known fact about Bonnie and Clyde, and let us know whether all the rumors going around were just that - rumors - or if they were actual bits of information that people had become privy to at some point.
ReplyDeleteIt does make a bit of a difference to those of us who are interested in the psychology of people - how would the knowledge of a pregnancy add to the stresses of being on the road? Would this have been something that might have convinced Bonnie to go ahead and throw herself on the mercy of the law, in effect "pleading her belly," as was common in earlier times?
I've read some of the rumors - in one of the books I recently read, Bonnie was spending some time with a young woman approximately her age (I forget the circumstances, exactly) and this woman was approximately Bonnie's age and she was about 6-1/2 months pregnant - and she stated that Bonnie appeared to be at about the same stage of pregnancy. I've read other statements along those lines - but I don't see any evidence of an advanced pregnancy in any photos of Bonnie, alive or dead!
I would be interested in learning, but I certainly do not want you to damage your good reputation with the people from whom you may gather information. For me, however, it's not just a matter of morbid curiosity; you may be able to tell that the psychology of Bonnie and Clyde fascinates me, and a pregnancy would have definitely been the object of a lot of emotion and no doubt a great deal of psychological stress.
Just a wool-gathering thought - if Bonnie were indeed pregnant, perhaps the toasting and celebration in some of the last photos taken of the group alive was related to that! (Just my own thought, not to be taken very seriously...)
Hello Joe--
ReplyDeleteA bureau of Investigation report filed concerning B&C having visited Ennis, Texas-- states that B&C had been to Ennis, for Bonnie to be treated by a Doctor there as she was in a "delicate condition". The word pregnant concerning Bonnie, is used within that document as well.
I've heard your thought expressed, concerning the term "delicate condition" perhaps referring to Bonnie's prior injuries. Based on a number of similar reports being known both insider and otherwise,
(some of which I'm not in a position to reveal at this point and which may be key)-- I don't believe there's much doubt concerning the meaning of the term "delicate condition" in Bonnie's case.
Your question regarding a sympathy factor, which the families could have employed with the knowledge of a BP pregnancy-- is a good one. I've heard this idea hashed out before, which included a family member's comments. That's one of the reasons I believe the families feel Bonnie wasn't pregnant, being if they had known-- such knowledge could have been used to perhaps help save Bonnie.
The other most commonly expressed viewpoint used to nix the idea of a BP pregnancy, has been that neither B&C could have children-- thus Bonnie couldn't have been pregnant. Based on a number of logical observations, and also some conflicting stories regarding this-- I'm not so convinced those assumptions are iron clad.
The difficulty today, lies in the fact we have no 1st generation family members left to ask what was known concerning this. It's possible, a BP pregnancy could have been known by some within the families-- but never revealed. It's also possible Bonnie chose not to reveal this to the families, but that likelihood may seem puzzling-- as it's been reported she told a member of the Methvin family in Louisiana of her pregnancy directly.
I can see how the Barrow and Parker families today might disagree with assessments such as this, but based on the unique circumstances of B&C being hunted and on the run-- to me, any of these realities "could" have been true. Billie's accounts of Bonnie, show Bonnie to have been one not to have folks worry. Whether those feelings could have included concealing a pregnancy in it's early stages??, or only confiding in some who may have taken that knowledge to their graves is unknown. But I'm not sure it's fair to think, something along those lines is impossible.
Hello BarefootOkieGal--
ReplyDeleteThe report you refer to was Clemmie Methvin's pregnancy. When knowledge of Bonnie's pregnancy was related to Clemmie, it was of interest to her-- in that both she and Bonnie would have been 2 1/2 months pregnant, and thus both would be due to deliver at approximately the same time. Clemmie's child was born supporting her timing as told.
At 2 1/2 months, it's unlikely a woman would show signs of carrying a child. There are a number of accounts which exist, which support the 2 1/2 month figure as being the perception held-- concerning a Bonnie pregnancy??
My concern for the families' feelings and wishes regarding this investigation, is quite keen for me. Likewise, my concern that the truth be known regarding this history-- is quite keen as well. Thus the balance which needs to be struck. I'm concerned as well, for pressures being exhibited by some, who seem to believe the truth shouldn't be known-- beyond what was known 76 years ago. But with so many new revelations coming to light now, with all respect-- I don't feel that position can be maintained. These views seem focused on protecting those, who could be judged poorly in some people's eyes depending on result.
My view is, the truth is what it is. Historical figures in 1934 made their choices, and those of us today need to let the chips of history fall where they may. As has been said-- "what difference would it make??"
Winston, I wish I could remember which book I was reading and exactly who the person was who believed that Bonnie was 6-1/2 months pregnant, but the person reporting it wasn't Clemmie Methvin - I did read that account, and I believe in that account Bonnie did tell Clemmie that she was pregnant. This was someone else who was relatively advanced in pregnancy, and she didn't claim to be told about it, but said that she had "noticed" that Bonnie appeared to be pregnant as well, and she guessed her pregnancy to be about as far along as hers. (I am going to have to start writing down the names of books from which I get specific points - I just read so many books overall that it's easy for me to forget. I'll have to go back over some of the books I've checked out to see if I can find that story again! But this was just a guess by the person involved - honestly, I don't know how she could have guessed that Bonnie was that far advanced in pregnancy, considering how very small Bonnie was and given the fact that there aren't any photos in which she appears to be pregnant, but maybe the THOUGHT she noticed something and then filled in with her own imagination; I'm betting that with Bonnie and Clyde, such things happened fairly often!
ReplyDeleteIt's always hard to tell when a pregnant woman will start "showing," but at 2-1/2 months, it may have been possible to see a small "bump" given Bonnie's tiny stature. Given the fact that she was stripped naked after death and examined, any visible sign of pregnancy would surely have been noted, even in such a relatively cursory examination. So, definitely no "bump" (at least that anyone will admit to, unless they've put it out in private documents that I have no access to) but that doesn't necessarily mean no pregnancy at such an early stage.
One of the things that would be helpful to know is whether Bonnie had regular periods. Women who have irregular menstrual periods have a more difficult time conceiving, usually, and if they do get pregnant, they often don't realize they're pregnant as soon as women who have a regular monthly period do. It's possible that if Bonnie were pregnant, she did not know it, if she did not menstruate regularly. Given her life on the run and her inadequate diet, it is possible that she suffered from complete or partial amenorrhea - that doesn't necessarily mean that she could not conceive, but it could make it possible for her not to realize it if she did conceive.
As far as people who are "in the know" who may not want this information revealed - I can respect their feelings, but I really can't see what harm there is in revealing information such as this at this late date. It's hard for me to see why it would damage or hurt anyone today - the reasons that I can think of for keeping something like that secret all have to do with shame, and I certainly mean no disrespect to anyone when I say that when compared to other acts of the Barrow Gang, an unwed pregnancy really wouldn't be all that awful! There may be other reasons that people who do have inside information don't wish to speak up, but in the interest of history - ACCURATE history - I do think that it would be wonderful if this question could be answered, once and for all; not for morbid curiosity seekers to get a kick, but to give people who are genuinely interested in the true history of Bonnie and Clyde yet another solid fact.
That is the trouble with B&C history - there are so many things that people "think" they saw, and quite often those people were as wrong as they could be! (As was the witness at Grapevine who was positive that he saw Bonnie give the coup-de-grace to the fallen officers - Ted Hinton points out in his book "Ambush" that the man was too far away to be able to recognize anyone at that distance.) I read the woman's claim with a very skeptical eye - Bonnie was certainly never 6-1/2 months pregnant during her time with Clyde!
ReplyDeleteI suppose it was thought that there was no need to do a real autopsy, given that the cause of death was pretty obvious - now, I could allow myself to get into conspiracy mode and suppose that perhaps it was in the best interest of some unnamed persons NOT to have a thorough autopsy conducted, but although I tend to be a rather cynical person, I don't automatically see a conspiracy in everything! It's entirely possible that even a full autopsy, given the technology available, might have missed a very early pregnancy unless someone was specifically looking for it; I'm not sure if an MD can tell merely by looking at a uterus if it contains a pregnancy or not (or if they could do so back in 1934) or if it would be something that would require actually cutting into the uterus, but since no actual autopsy was ever done, it's a moot point.
I have read of a possible Bonnie pregnancy in a couple of the books that I recently checked out and read, but one of them was the woman who just looked at Bonnie and guessed that she was 6-1/2 months pregnant, and there was someone else who "got a feeling" that Bonnie was pregnant by something she had said - well, guesses and feelings don't add up to facts.
I would like to see the truth told, if anyone actually KNOWS the truth for certain at this late date! Again, though, whether I can see the reasons for it or not, apparently some people don't want this information known; it may just be one of those things that can be proven, but never shared publicly!
I wouldn't put much credence in a report concerning a 6 1/2 month pregnancy for Bonnie. Remember she was shot in the stomach at Dexfield Park, just the summer before. That's another factor in all of this, which is often overlooked. The 2 1/2 month time frame for Bonnie, has a number of reports to back it up. Whether it's true or not is another matter, but the time frame as reported-- is most often 2 1/2 months.
ReplyDeleteI'll also say that besides the joy of seeing my daughter's sonograms along the way during her pregnancy-- a most fortunate by-product of my viewing those images, was to help in this matter. In having viewed those sonograms, I now have a much better understanding why a young woman (as in my daughter's case)-- wouldn't show at I believe it was 12 or 14 weeks along.
It was obvious when looking at that particular sonogram-- at that point, the fetus had not yet reached the uterine wall. There was still space left to fill, before my daughter was to show. Based on that real life example, I feel confident in saying that at a reported 10 weeks, I don't think it likely-- Bonnie would have shown in Arcadia or anywhere else. I could be wrong, but that sonogram seemed extremely helpful-- where this debate is concerned.
I don't buy any conspiracy theory concerning the coroner's inquest. Too many witnesses all over and around Dr. Wade-- too much time pressure. Carroll Rich who knew Dr. James Wade well, said Wade could never be pressured to do anything he didn't want to do. So I'm not sure where you were going with that one, but that's what I know-- based on personal 1st hand knowledge of Wade.
ReplyDeleteIt's my understanding no internal exam of Bonnie was performed. Wade did have an opinion concerning a Bonnie pregnancy (as he was asked at the time)-- but didn't reveal his impression until years later.
These wranglings into attempting to ferret out the truth "can" be frustrating, but can also be greatly rewarding as well. Hell if we knew who to ask for sure concerning the truth, it would be easy.
I'm sorry your last comment ended up out of order. I was revising my last one, when you commented and beat me to the post. If you'd like your comment back in the right order, just copy, paste and re-post your last entry. Then I'll delete the extra one and reorganize.
Hi Winston
ReplyDeleteWith todays technology- could a blood sample be extracted from the right side of the death car- matched to Bonnie's niece (to ensure Bonnie's blood) and then possible tested for pregnancy. maybe what we see on CSI shows on TV really works
just one of my wild thoughts- maybe the casino can use it for publicity with a possible movie coming out. This could also prove if there was any doubt of the death car
Oh, it's okay to leave me out of order, comment-wise - not a picky person!
ReplyDeleteI wasn't trying to suggest there was any type of conspiracy to cover anything up with regard to the inquest, although I can see how my ramblings may have made it seem that way! I was merely saying that a conspiracy-minded person could probably come up with some nefarious "reason" there was never a true autopsy, but I'm not that person. Given the circumstances and the fact that the cause of death was readily apparent, I believe that the legalities were satisfied by the simple examination that was done. Sorry if I gave the wrong impression there! I definitely don't have any conspiracy theories.
The question of whether or not Bonnie was pregnant is definitely one that continues to interest people - if you google the matter, you'll be almost overwhelmed by the sheer number of sites on which that question has been discussed! I do believe that's just plain old human curiosity - it's a definite possibility; it was mentioned by police officers and people who had met Bonnie; it was apparently a matter of speculation almost before their bodies had cooled. If anyone knew anything for certain, apparently they held their peace - you know, that would have been a VERY difficult thing to do over all these years, with all the speculation that still continues!
Hi Joe--
ReplyDeleteI like your style in thinking outside the box. I'm not sure, whether your forensic suggestions could be implemented. I would think blood might degrade over time. Perhaps you could look into this.
It seems to me, the mystery of the death car was settled with the Ted Toddy trial. Ted Hinton testified at that trial as the last remaining ambush posse member. He had apparently marked the death car, and matched his mark at trial-- thus authenticating the Toddy car as the former Warren car that B&C were killed in.
By the way for those skeptical of Hinton, at the Toddy trial Deputy Hinton was asked to recount the ambush. He testified "under oath"-- concerning his claim that Ivy Methvin was detained and handcuffed to a tree. Many feel Hinton's story was only told within his book Ambush. By testifying under oath in a court of law, he etched in stone his controversial comments by swearing to their accuracy. I'm sure to many this may not make a difference, but it is the case none the less.
Hello again BarefootOkieGal--
ReplyDeleteHey, you can can certainly advance a conspiracy theory-- concerning a BP pregnancy if you'd like. The only other conspiracy theory I've heard mentioned concerning the coroner's inquest-- was one involving the possibility that Wade could have covered up Hamer brutally abusing Bonnie while helping to kill her.
This involved the famous Hamer assassin theory, of targeting Bonnie at point blank range, from the right of the Warren car-- pumping numerous shots into the right side of Bonnie's head and body with his powerful Colt machine rifle-- ala Jeff Guinn. For those sensitive to this-- yes I'm taking another swipe at Jeff, and his sensationalized account of the ambush. Sometimes you need to be able to take the criticism, along with the glory.
Unless someone can come up with a shred of legitimate proof for that assertion-- Balderdash!! Your analysis concerning the coroner's inquest not needing to establish a cause of death beyond the obvious, as I've been told-- was the logic for not needing to perform autopsies on B&C. That does make sense, and considering the crush of people reportedly jammed into Congers-- I'm not sure autopsies could have been attempted. But if autopsies had been performed, "perhaps"?? the truth concerning a Bonnie pregnancy might have been revealed-- perhaps.
The whole "parade" consisting of the towed death car and the various lawmen's vehicles and the mob of curiosity seekers had to be seen to be believed! I've seen photos that were taken along the route to Arcadia and the crush of crowds around the death car; Hinton and others have mentioned that they had to hold the crowd back while they removed the bodies from the car to get them into Congers, and you can see the crush of people in those photos, too. There are accounts of curiosity-seekers trying to hard to get in to see what was going on that they had to be squirted with embalming fluid to drive them back; they apparently broke down some displays in their frenzy! In order for a full autopsy to be done the bodies would have had to moved yet again to someplace with the facilities to perform such a procedure, and I don't think that would have been possible with the crowds that were around!
ReplyDeleteIf a full autopsy could have been performed, the question might have been cleared up. I do like Joe's suggestion of testing the blood left in the car, but like you, I think the blood would be pretty well degraded by now, and might not yield anything.
As far as Frank Hamer blasting a nearly-dead Bonnie with his big ol' gun - I've seen that in the Guinn book, and I've seen comments here and there indicating that people believe that happened, but Bonnie's wounds absolutely do not bear that out.
It's interesting that some people want to make other people seem more harsh and cruel than they actually were - the press and police blamed Bonnie and Clyde for crimes they could not possibly have committed (I remember reading about one instance in which they were charged with rape!) and then after the ambush, people were just fizzing with curiosity about the details and willing to believe just about anything they heard from anyone who claimed to have seen and heard anything. Hinton seems to feel that was the beginning of a lot of rumors about Bonnie and Clyde and the ambush - folks gathering, no one having any real information, but when loud people start announcing that they saw and heard it all and begin telling their stories, nosy people tend to listen and often believe! It would not surprise me to have had several "eyewitnesses" to the whole thing - people who had actually been within earshot and who had run over to the scene after the firing had died down, too late to see anything - who would claim to have seen everything, and naturally no two of their versions would be the same!
It is interesting that Frank Hamer was willing to kill a woman whom he believed to be pregnant. At the time, women were treated better than men were by the law; in earlier days (I'm not sure when the practice ended) pregnant women were allowed to "plead their belly" when charged with a crime, and that would buy them some time. I'm not sure exactly who in the posse might have known about the possibility of Bonnie's pregnancy, but while it was not considered a reason not to kill her, it must have weighed heavily on their minds in later days.
I feel strongly that Hamer choose the high road ..taking the stance of going forward with his own ego and being remembered in posterity as the "heroic lawman" who stopped the "outlaws".He saw that opportunity and took it...anyone who's seen the autopsy photos can see the overkill.They were outnumbered,ambushed like dogs and not even given a second to surrender.The whole situation stunk,no matter their alleged crimes,these so called " law men" were hyped up because they planned to do what they did from the get-go because the big shot in charge said so...If he was aware of the chance of her being pregnant...that was for him a negligible point, especially when up against being the " big shot" who gained the fame for "taking down" those two no one else seemed to be able to do.Personally..I dont think it would have stopped his ambush/sleazy murderous action even if Bonnie had been 9 months and showing.His mindset-"I'm the "good guy" ..gonna kill the "bad guys" because I have a trap.And think of all the pats on the back and attaboys!What an embarrassment he was to my thinking to the spirit of our american system of judiciary and personal rights and law enforcement professionalism and procedures..even in those days.He got away with it though.
ReplyDeleteI agree :)
DeleteAgreed :)
DeleteI am interested to know iff she was or wasnt. It really should be uncovered its not like anyone is going to get in trouble for killing a pregnant woman almost 80 years ago!
DeleteI am interested to know iff she was or wasnt. It really should be uncovered its not like anyone is going to get in trouble for killing a pregnant woman almost 80 years ago!
DeleteDid anyone simply think that Hamer and company would have wanted to make sure that no Bonnie and Clyde child was born? These people farmed and raised animals- selective breeding to get the best genetic characteristics and culling herds to prevent undesirable characteristics. Hamer might subscribed to those beliefs....just a thought...
ReplyDeleteHello Kimberly-- Frank Hamer gets mixed reviews from me. Even though it "was" Henderson Jordan's posse-- Hamer had the notoriety. He and the law had a job to do and they did it-- taking no chances and giving no mercy. Not unusual for the 1930's. There's no doubt in my mind, based on his own communication with Frank Blake of the Dallas office of the Bureau of Investigation made "prior" to the ambush-- that he believed Bonnie to be pregnant. Hard to know what he thought beyond his admission-- but suffice to say, seemingly that knowledge made little difference in deterring his actions. My observation is to wonder, whether the other members of the posse knew in advance as well-- and what if anything, that knowledge contributed to their actions at Sailes and beyond??
ReplyDeleteHi Aamber-- me too!!
ReplyDelete